Stamina Usage in Combat & Damage Analysis

[Yoshino]

(Note: Miki told me to go ahead and post this.)

I'm going to be reviewing each of Miki's points, and delivering my own thoughts for open discussion. (I presume these rules are open to discussion and potential revision, should something better be presented and approved, right?) So without further ado, here is the first.

For this one in order to boost your stat higher than what it currently is take a lot of energy, but at the same time it shouldn't exhaust you to the point where the stat boost becomes a negative. In this effect the ratio that is generally practiced is a .75:1 ratio rounded down. (Example: Tech boost your spirit 10 this should cost you 7 stamina to use. 75/10 = 7.5 rounded down to 7)

Miki states that a statistic boost "Shouldn't exhaust you to the point where the stat boost becomes a negative." The problem, is that such a ratio is exactly that. .75:1 is a TERRIBLE ratio for gameplay. If somebody is using a buff such as this, they're blowing stamina out their ass for a very small benefit. Take his listed example of 7 stamina for +10. +10 is less than a full tier (assuming we're still using the tiers, they are in a thread on this site, but I'm not sure if they are in play.) For 7 stamina EVERY TURN? How is somebody supposed to fight like that? Lets say somebody has 50 strength naturally. They'll be swinging along happily, while someone who is ONLY TEN STRENGTH LOWER is paying 7 more stamina every single turn to match their opponent who is barely stronger.

My personal suggestion, based on thorough study, maths, and a little playtesting, is 1:5. This is the ratio I used for Ryder's techniques, and the one I had people use at BG, and it worked wonderfully. It's just enough to make paying the technique slot, paying the stamina, and paying the action to cast it worthwhile. You only get two actions per turn, after all, spending an action NOT breaking your opponent's face has to be worthwhile, and spending that action just to dump stamina at a terrible rate is far from worthwhile.

Incidentally, this ratio also pans out to (on average), 3 stamina per tier, which I find to be a nice clean number. Remember that any buff should be properly restricted, such as by skill ranks and raw stats. Remember a buff with a duration has to be paid every round (at the beginning of the character's turn before [s]he does anything else) and part of the balance to it is that it requires an action to cast.

NOTE: The stamina exchange I propose is based on a Per Round basis. They don't look at how many rounds the character will use them, in my opinion that specific item is best left to review in the individual techs.

[Yoshino]

This type of technique is one of the vaguest of all. Pending on the illusion and how intricate it is; this technique will cost anywhere from 3-20 Stamina. The main thing to remember is the continuing effects and maintenance of the illusion. Generally the continuous stamina drain should be at about 10-50% pending, again, on how intricate the illusion is.

I'm with Miki on this. Illusion type spells require a delicate hand in examining how much they cost relative to the effect (and illusions are one of the few types of techniques where things may have to be flat out denied or modified rather than having appropriate costs applied.)

One thing that does require clarification though, is the maintenance price. '10-50%' ? What exactly does that mean? Are we introducing a cost relative to someone's total?

For this one you just follow the Kido spell cost chart. You need to associate a power level with these things anyways. Custom Cero|Bala should always cost 2-5 stamina extra depending on the power of the spell.

Ok, I know I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but where are the guidelines on what power a Cero/Bala possesses? How is the destructive force contained in these defined? (The same probably goes for spells as well.) My initial suggestion was that they operate at higher stats, but I imagine there are alternative options (less clear and more easily abused/misunderstood options in my opinion, but I could be wrong.)

These are always pending on how much damage it does. If the physical attacks are made for purely defensive situating then they may cost lower. If the technique is set up for world death, then the stamina cost should be much greater.

These guidelines are pretty decent, but labeling them "Physical Techniques" isn't exactly the ideal way to go about it in my opinion. Quincy projectile techs, release energy techs, and other things all fall into this as long as they aren't explicit spells or Cero/Hado or Illusion.

[Yoshino]

Here is my general guide on how to gauge stamina cost for Physical Techniques

Light Damage: 1-3 stamina
Medium Damage: 3-5 Stamina
Moderate Damage: 6-10 stamina
Heavy Damage: 11 and up.

Now granted these techs may contain more than one effect if successfully hit by the Technique. If that is the case then a general +1-3 stamina added onto it is generally acceptable.

Light Damage, Medium Damage, Moderate Damage, Heavy Damage? The hell?

Maybe I misunderstood something about the system, but I thought damage was based on stats? It would be a hell of a lot simpler and provide a much more universal approach if these were simply momentarily higher Strength/Spirit for the purpose of damage calculation (which is compared against defense.)

Otherwise... how would these 'damage levels' interact with the interaction between Offensive and Defensive stats? I'm sure it's possible, but it seems to be adding an unnecessary layer to the system.

[Yoshino]

Ok, all done now. Fire away guys.

[Miki Tenshi]

That was stamina per type of damage. That can be deleted I put that up while half asleep and we know how well my brain works when it is half asleep.

Over all the only real thing I have issues about is you stance on the Stam per stat boost thing. I still like the initial cost to be more for techniques that boost any stat. This will make it to where people have to be committed to the technique rather than spend a small amount for the initial stat boost then turn it off because they don't want to spend the full stamina. In my opinion that is a form of Mini-Maxing their stamina pool.

Like you said in the Cbox people who do that are abusing the system and shouldn't be Pogo-Sticking their stats and stamina like that, but I think it will just be generally more effective to eliminate that potential abuse from happening from the get go.

Over all I think that Stat boosts shouldn't be something one can do just because they can and throw their stats around with relatively no danger at expending too much stamina. I think it should be one of those things that people do in order to save themselves or a final umf in order to win a conflict. It should be something that you have to think, "Should I do this?". That is my opinion at least.

Edit: Changed the Physical Attack thing from Damage to "Attack"

[Ivan Mendeleev]

I kind of agree with the stat boosts being a last resort. Mostly because if you want to alter your fighting style and be flexible, you could easily do something along the lines of Luto's stances, subtract one stat and distribute it into the stats you want to boost. This eliminates the problem of an overly taxing stat boost, however at a price of probably one of your main statistics (in Luto's case he sacrificed 30 Defense [his main stat] in order to make himself more physically oriented by giving 15 Speed & Strength.) This makes it so one could bend their fighting style for certain occasions, however the stat boosts could be for occasions where one needs a boost but can not risk eliminating another stat.

On top of the whole stat for stat thing, we could make a rule against lowering a stat past 20 or 30, your call, for a stat boost. Of course, you could think this is unethical either way, just stating an opinion. (This type of buff I named a stance.)

[Kasumi Matsumara]

I say a single stat should not be lower than 20 as far as a stat sacrifice are concerned.

[Izumi Tenshi]

I can't write a lot on account of being burnt out from writing in general... X_X stupid 10 page paper I woke up at 6am this morning to stomp out of the way.

So my main issue right now is the cost of buffs and debuffs. Ideally I would like buffs and debuffs to cost cheaper(buffs however I would like to see them be a tad more expensive due to the nature of powering yourself up). The reason I would like to see them cost less than the .75 to 1 ratio is well... back on the old site my character was a Saboteur build. She had pretty bulky stats so she wasn't a min/maxer and her techniques were designed so she would be ideal in team type fights. Her techniques did effects like slowing opponent's down and dropping their strength and defense. She only had 1 or 2 actual offensive damage causing techniques and despite the fact she had monstrous stamina her techniques using the .75 to 1 ratio were too draining. I was spending 20 stamina on average for my techniques to do less of an effect than people were doing with just straight up damage techniques. That shouldn't be allowed. Buffs and Debuffs can be abused, yes, but so can normal damage techniques. I don't know how many times I had to get on people for creating "unavoidable" attacks and in reality... there is no difference between that and the min/maxing problem that buffs can cause.

We can honestly do this two ways as far as changing the buff/debuff system goes. We can establish the tier system I was working on or we can try out Ryder's system. For the moment I'm just in favor of using Ryder's system since it was already established and proven it could work as long as proper limits were set up. If need be we can make it so buffs/debuffs can not drop a number past 20 or beyond a tier or two. Just in general I would like to see the cost a bit cheaper so that the techniques get the same treatment as the insane damage techs, or the tricky illusion techs. Fair and balanced and right now while the cost may be balanced in a way its certainly not fair. It makes buffs and debuffs feel like a waste of a technique slot. So I would really love a chance to just try out a different system, I believe it can work perfectly and if it doesn't then we can always reestablish the old system or we can go back to the drawing boards.

[Miki Tenshi]

Okii doki.

I will edit the stamina section accordingly ^^ I am going to add some restrictions so that buffs and debuff's won't be abused. I personally like the Tier buff idea better. I have made something like that as well, but I agree that trying out Ryders idea will work as well.

I.E. 1 post cool down on all Buffs. This away if they want to try and pogo-stick their stats to save on Stamina they have to wait for the cooldown.

Debuff's cannot exceed a -20 stat decrease, or 1 tier defender reduction.


Okay now for the stamina cost for buff. It was suggested that it should be a 1:5 ratio; meaning for every 5 points in the stat 1 stamina will be used. This is a per turn instance. I would like to propose a 2:5 ratio. That means a +20 stat bonus is going to cost 8 stamina to use instead of 5 I also suggest that we but at +20 stat buff cap. This will help keep our str and spirit damage to a manageable number.

(If you feel there needs to be more or less of these please input your suggestions so we can make the stamina thing fair.)

[Kenshou Ine]

Miki I agree and this is actually what I had suggested to Ryder in pm's. STAMP OF APPROVAL!

[Kasumi Matsumara]

I agree with Ken's sentiments wholeheartedly. I don't anything wrong with it.

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